Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:28:09 -0700

Author: Bernard Cleyet

Subject: Re: CHAT WTC discussion.




Andrew Yue wrote:

> Bernard, I can see elements of truth in all points except for one. What
> we've seen of a true Islamic Republics is that they become Islamic
> dictatorships in the hands of Islamic extremists.

With "our" help, of course. "We" support the oil dictatorships to
ensure an
inexpensive supply. The Palestine "govt.", though, very imperfect ,is
considerably more democratic, (secular state - women professionals and
members of P. National Council, etc.) and "we" s*** on them.

> At 10:02 PM 9/20/01 -0700, you wrote:
> >This was one point of a previous post -- a weak group of people can only
> >resort to terror -- they don't have a nuclear deterrent
> >to make them free.
> In regards to the Reichstad comparison, our/my information is incomplete
> concerning who is culpable. I don't mean to suggest that our own
> government had a hand in the attacks, but with the multitude of terrorist
> cells/groups in existence. However, I'd want to make sure that a real case
> is made before the correct parties are brought to task.

Not that "our" govt. had any involvement (not clear the Nazis did
either, read ), but make demagogic
use of
the event.

I just heard a radio international law person say that we and Pakistan
(or was
it Afghanistan?) are signatories of a convention against terrorism that
requires a legal procedure (indictment, brought before the World Court,
etc.). It appears this is what the Afghan govt. refers to when they want
proof (should be "like" evidence sufficient for a grand jury indictment?)
When "we" committed acts of terrorism against Nicaragua, they brought the
govt. before the world court, obtained a judgment, with that took it to the
security council which the US vetoed, took it to the gen. assembly; they voted
unanimously except for, of course, the US and "our" client state, Israel.
This the US ignored. Later the US made a deal with the Chomorro govt. With
draw the judgment and we'll give aid. they did, and the aid never
materialized. Like the deal Serbia made. In that case only ~ a third will
(has) materialized, the remaining to pay off previous debts! Milo. is
probably the most expensive kidnapping of all time.

> In regards to our civil liberties, who is this Ken Rich? I hope I got

I've never heard of Ken Rich. what is your reference?

> the name right.
> Lastly, let us not forget that this is a stew of our own making, much like
> the harsh conditions of the 1918 Treaty of Versailles lead to the rise of
> fascism in Europe, but in the face of those who seek to do us violent harm,
> we have an obligation to deter, disable and weaken their abilities to
> accomplish that end. Noam Chomsky may be a great political philosopher but
> the state has the right to defend itself against both the Timothy McVeighs
> that are within and from overseas.

The devil is in the details, i.e. method(s).

A significant number think the current govt. is illegitimate, and, therefore,
doesn't have the right. A number think we don't have a democracy, but a
kleptocracy/plutocracy, and, therefore, it doesn't have the right for this
reason. Remember one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

There is also the question of innocent. What is the criterion for innocence?